At the urging of someone that hangs around these parts, (Guy Meilleur ) I'm posting this
in hopes of receiving your opinions, wisdom and whatever you'd like to contribute.

Several years ago, the neighbors behind me placed a eucalyptus tree that was 10 foot tall at the time, 20 inches from our property line.
I immediately asked them to relocate the tree, but they refused, saying they'd keep it
trimmed (they haven't).

Years have passed. We've dealt with and
been distracted by the massive amount of
mess the thing makes in our yard and
have concentrated on cleaning it up.

Big mistake.
The tree is now between 50 - 60 feet tall.

There is a crack which runs vertically
(down the wall) of our swimming pool.
Coming out of the crack, just below the pool
water line, are little fingers of tree roots.

The tree sits about 20 inches higher than
where the roots are coming out of my pool.

There is a planter bed/retaining wall between the tree, a narrow pool deck walk,
and finally, the pool wall.

The total distance between where the tree
sits and where the roots come out of the pool is 6 feet, 8 inches.

We have done some digging in the planter bed in the immediate area where the crack in the pool wall/roots are.

There is a pretty serious root cluster with about 8 shoots of roots ranging in diameter
between 3 and 6 inches.

One of these shoots is sort of a double
in that there are two distinct roots, but they
are sort of bound together.

This is the root that appears to be growing
directly into the concrete.

Can a tree root crack concrete/a pool wall?

Sure looks like it.
What do you all think?

My neighbors insurance company wants to send out their own arborist.
He is listed as an "expert witness" on the ASCA web page.
Still, he *is* their employee, if you will, or may be subject to certain predetermined opinions.

I have spoken to attorney/arborist
Randy Stamen who has said he would
"help me out" but he suggested I first
try and settle.

What are your thoughts out there?
Anyone have experience with tree roots/pools?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Reply to post by Kevin, on March 05, 2002 at 16:50:57:

It is accepted that roots in some extream conditions can move concreat. Heaving of walks and moving of retaining walls are the most often noted. there is a school of though that it is the structures that are not sufficiently designed.

Inground pools leak, roots will follow water plumes, sewer line infiltration is a like instance.

IMHO the proximity of an agressivly growing tree exaserbated an existing problem, while not the root (sorry) cause it excellerated the natural decline of the structure.

Having a structural engineer with pool experiance looking at the structure would not hurt.

Reply to post by JPS, on March 05, 2002 at 16:50:57:

While I understand your fears regarding the arborist being employed by the opposition's insurance company, I would have thought that if they are an ASCA certified then they would be supplying an unbiased, independent report that should bear out your claim if this is the case. We have to have some faith in the 'system'!

Reply to post by Glenn Waters, on March 05, 2002 at 20:58:41:

Fundamentally, you are moving into the "litigation" stage of your tree problem. You are entitled to retain a tree specialist as your expert witness, the other party is entitled to do the same. "For each and every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert". If the two experts say basically, the same thing, there will probably be negotiations back and forth. If they are totally opposed in their opinions, you are probably heading for a court case, where either the judge or jury will decide on the issues of the matter. Regretably, these decisions are not always based on sound and objective reporting. They are sometimes made on the basis of the manner in which facts are presented.
I do not envy you in your current predicament, Good Luck, James

Reply to post by James Causton, on March 12, 2002 at 19:54:05:

There may be some other threads about roots and concrete taht went into this.. but I'll try to summarize. As JPS decsribes it is very common for roots to lift sidewalk slabs. That is becasue the pressure or radial growth (i.e. in root diameter) is greater than the weight of the rather small slab + the friction holding it next to its neighbor slab at the expansion joint. Sometimes, especially if there is an existing crack an/or insufficient reinforcement, this radial pressure will also crack the slab... and the "failure" or movement if there already was a crack will be on the upper side where the concrete is put in tension. Concrete has very poor strength in tension. This is NOT an indication that the roots you describe are the likely cause of your pool damage. I think the literature is pretty clear that a growing root tip will not penetrate through a thin plastic membrane (I don't know, say 3 mils which is a medium weight). It is not likely, that the root tip will exert sufficient pressure to penetrate intact concrete. Roots will exploit an existing crack and will grow where there is moisture.

So the advice to have a structural engineer or pool expert look at the pool structure is a good one (and the other side will do the same if they are smart). So, one issue is the measure of damages to your pool. Did the roots CAUSE the pool damage and what's it worth?

A separate issue is are the roots a nuisance? Is the "nuisance" merely a bother in the everyday sense or a legally defined condition that damages you and you can collect for? Even if the pool is your problem not caused by the roots, are the roots themselves something you can collect damages for or have removed?

Same I guess would apply to dropping fruit, bark or branches.

As attorney Stamen is no doubt aware the applicable case in CA may be Booska v Patel which I think says that you have rights in that regard but must act in a reasonable fashion that will not endanger the tree.... that I think assumes it's trunk is entirely on their side of the boundary. If, in fact, it has grown over the boundary and it's boundary tree things might be different.

So I think the advice to settle is good. To know what to settle for the big $ issue is probably the CAUSE of the pool damage. That brings you back to a structural/pool expert. But be careful, there's a lot of common wisdom that "oh sure the roots did this" when the science may not support that conclusion. Remember, they will get their own experts too.

Reply to post by Scott, on March 16, 2002 at 00:02:28:

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts,
experience and wisdom.

I am still waiting to hear from the insurance company at this point.

The arborist they hired has been here
and by now has provided them with his report.

Based on that, I'm sure, they will make some kind of offer.

Based on their offer, I will then determine
my next course of action.

While I would have liked to have heard
opinions from him (their arborist) that were more supportive of my point of view, my sense of him, was that he was attempting to
be fair and neutral (as neutral as one can be, when the other party is paying for ones services).

Still, as has been alluded to in an earlier post:

Even if he is being fair and neutral,
it is still his opinion, and there could
be someone out there just as fair and
neutral, with the opposite opinion.

At the very least, I'll probably call Randy
(Stamen) again.

Thanks again to all.

Kevin